2015年5月13日星期三

德奧恩怨

早早前無意中見到呢篇嘢。我冇讀過西史唔知佢講得啱唔啱.大家會唔會知啲啲可以分享吓呢?

 http://www.inmediahk.net/node/1021269

奧地利人一向自視為二次大戰之受害者,蓋因該國為納粹德國對外擴張的首位受害者﹝註︰教人諷刺的是,奧地利是納粹首腦希特拉的故國﹞,而且在戰爭中無辜受到嚴重破壞……
當時德奧兩國有不少人皆支持兩國合併,甚至不少奧國軍人加入德軍,活躍於二次大戰期間,如在德軍征服挪威及克里特島的戰役中,曾有前奧國的山地師參與!故此,部份史家認為奧地利實不是受害者!
然而,亦有若干奧地利人反對德奧合併,特拉普家族便是一例。﹝註︰還有精神分析學家弗洛依德﹙Sigmund Freud﹚——奧籍猶太人——在兩國合併後逃亡倫敦!﹞
特拉普家族的經歷,在某程度上可反映德奧兩國之間複雜的恩怨!
其實奧地利人亦德國人;易言之,奧地利本為一德國人的邦國。查該國之歷史,可追溯至8世紀,當時統治西歐大部份地區的加羅林帝國 ﹝Carolingian Empire﹞皇帝查理曼﹝Charlemagne﹞為阻擋斯拉夫人﹝Slavs﹞東侵,於中歐設立「東馬克」﹝East March﹞——此即奧地利前身!後來加羅林帝國於843年解體,其東部於962年發展成神聖羅馬帝國﹝Holy Roman Empire﹞——德國前身,而奧地利為帝國諸侯邦國之一!至13世紀後期,哈堡斯堡家族﹝House of Hapsburg﹞的魯道夫一世﹝Rudolph I﹞獲當選為神聖羅馬皇帝,魯道夫將奧地利封授於其子,從此哈堡斯堡家族以奧地利為憑藉,成為歐洲歷史上舉足輕重的皇族之一。而奧地利在哈堡斯堡家族治 下,成為德國境內實力最強大的邦國之一﹝註︰此家族於1438年壟斷神聖羅馬帝國帝位至1806年﹞!
19世紀中葉,民族主義興起,德國的有識之士曾於1848-1849年間的法蘭克福會議﹝The Frankfurt Assembly﹞討論德國統一事宜,會議期間與會者分為「大德意志」派及「小德意志」派——前者主張統一的德國以奧地利為首,後者則主張以普魯士為首。 此會議最後雖以失敗告終,但在德國統一運動史上是一重要里程碑︰
  1. 「小德意志」派自此得直,德民族主義者決定日後統一的德國不包括奧地利﹝註︰蓋因奧地利人不願割裂其非德人居住之領土以配合德國統一﹞
  2. 隨着普魯士的崛起,奧地利在德國諸邦中的影響力日減
亦因此,在普魯士主導的德國統一過程中﹝1860-1871﹞,奧地利被排拒於外!故此,不少史家批評德國在1871年並非真正的統一!
第一次世界大戰期間,德奧兩國結成同盟,但因戰敗而分別與戰勝國簽訂《凡爾賽和約》﹝Treaty of Versailles﹞和《聖日曼茵條約》﹝Treaty of St. Germain-ein-Laye﹞。二條約均訂明德奧兩國不得合併!二次大戰後,英、美、法、蘇等國與奧地利於1955年簽訂《奧地利國家條約》 ﹝Austrian State Treaty﹞,規定奧地利恢復獨立,並為中立國﹝註︰冷戰結束後奧地利才放棄中立﹞!故此,德奧合併在某程度上為國際法所不容!

70 則留言:

  1. 哈哈…西史我讀得很少,除了鹿鼎記中的那一段俄史…我全都忘記了!

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  2. 雖然讀過西史,但都忘了許多……許多……

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    1. 但係奧地利, 完全冇人知呢套荷里活名片 !

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    2. The Sound of Music唔係個個奧地利人都識。聽講以前禁咗.

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  4. 你又乜事無拉拉搭到西史筋呀~~~

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  5. If Austria united with Germany. European would be worried.
    I read something similar to you found. I once argued with a colleague, he said Austrian speaking German doesn't mean Austrian are ethnically Germans (here I refer German as 德意志民族, not 德國人 which is citizen). I disagreed because there was a German confederation where a unified Germany wasn't formed yet, Austria and Prussia were the strongest German states in this confederation. Both wanted to unify and lead Germany. There were several reasons why Austria failed to unify Germany: 1. Austria was defeated by Prussia 2. Austria ruled the lands of other ethnics such as Czechoslovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, part of Romania, part of Italy and ..., these ppl. were not Germans, they didn't want to live with other Germans in the same country 3. If Austria was part of Germany, even though it was defeated by Prussia, it would still be a threat to Prussia and competed with it for the leadership in Germany, therefore Bismarck excluded Austria. After WWI, all non-German territories got independence with the land of Germans remained in Austria. Its imperial regime was also finished. Ppl. there propsed to rename the country as Republik Deutschösterreich, but the allies of WWI didn't agree, forced them to remove "Deutsch" and forbade Austria to unite with Germany. It seems Austrian prefer to emphaize on their nationality rather than their ethnicity because Austria was excluded from German confederation after the Austro Prussian war, they worked hard to build up their own identity. The other reason is Germans give ppl. a poor image due to WWII, Austrian want to decouple from Germans. But ironically Hilter is Austrian. Some ppl. even commented that during WWII, Austrian were more cruel to the Jewish.
    There something I don't understand. Joseph Haydn composed the emperor quartet for his emperor and later on became the Austrian empire national anthem until the end of WWI. But this music became Germany national anthem after WWI until now.
    Some ppl. asked if it was Austria, provided it gave up the Slavic land, led the unification of Germany, would the 2 WWs happen? I reckon it would be the same. When a country becomes very strong due to unifying several countries, this country will also become ambitious. Besides, a strong nationalism was built up among the Germans before unification where the weaker German states were led by Napolean.

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    1. 多謝補充。關於國歌我都唔係好明做乜德國攞咗嚟用.

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  6. 問港人奧國歷史,問奧人中國歷史,好似問錯對像喎!簡直係對牛彈琴。你不如問吓奧人奧國歷史。

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    1. 我覺得奧地利人認為自己都係受害者.

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  7. 你去公園問啲阿伯吖嘛,WWII 佢地分分鐘親身經歷過呀

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    1. 我估如果問人冇人會認自己支持合併

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  8. 當年奧地利大多數激進人士支持德奧合併,這是事實...,由當年拆除邊界相片可見,
    而希特勒的奧國出身背景,亦喺當年合併的主因,奧國與德國一次大戰敗北,被歐美迫到絕景,亦喺同流合污的導火線。
    所有人民都喺戰爭的受害者,並非喺國家,所指的只喺奧地利人本身的情義結,你不是他們,亦無需理會!

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    1. 支持唔支持其實都係戰爭受害者.

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  9. 回覆
    1. 我唔認識呢段歷史真係唔敢去分析。但係我覺得奧地利人認為自己都係受害者.

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  10. 希特拉係奧地利人嚟㗎!
    其實以前哈布斯皇朝咁大版圖,德奧匈都係佢嘅,都係同一出撤㗎啦
    Btw兩國我都咁鐘意

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    1. 德國人會話佢係奧地利人,但係奧地利人唔認佢係奧地利人囉.

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  11. 唔係呀?!!...要讀歷史...排都未排到奧國啦~~~(擰晒頭!)

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  12. 歷史要問我老伴,佢實口水多過荼.

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  13. Thnaks for letting me know the history of these two neighboring countries.

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  14. 二戰前德奧合併總有人支持及反對,反對的自然認為德國害佢地,不過鬼叫當時英、法、蘇等大國冇提出反對.

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    1. 我覺得奧地利人認為自己都係受害者

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  15. 我覺得奧地利唔算係受害國喎~~~~~縱使有部份人(特別是奧國猶裔)反對德奧合併但至少當時奧國政府係明確地支持與納粹德國合併吧,所以奧國好明顯係同捷克波蘭果D受害國有很大分別!!!!
    我覺得奧地利人係在二戰後期見納粹德國敗象已呈,才不斷強調自己也是受害者的角色而已...
    之前睇過好多紀綠片,二戰初期好多奧地利人夾道歡迎納粹德軍入城,有片有真相啦~~~仲要扮.....

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    1. 同意你的見解,
      合情合理,
      合歷史背景**
      德國已認錯 道歉 反醒,令國民再可站起來,
      若有人再提出哩啲死不悔改思維,
      好難面向世人@@

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    2. 日本政府就喺有你哩篇post文的思維...!!

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    3. 我覺得奧地利人認為自己都係受害者

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  16. Um....雖然我之前係文科而且有修西史...
    但係一離開香港..就還番哂俾老師..
    多謝分享

    珮夫人

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    1. 咁有冇補學一啲澳洲歷史呢?

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    2. 考入籍試個陣補學過! 一考完又唔記得左大半 XDDD

      珮夫人

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    3. 哈哈哈. 典型香港學生。

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  17. 中學時代因為西史而放棄文科的

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  18. 最尾嗰段係啱嘅,當時的確有條約阻止德奧兩國結盟。
    但奧地利係唔係二戰受害者,呢點好有爭論性,都係睇你點睇:-B
    二戰時係希特拉迫奧地利簽約合併,奧地利首相唔肯簽,但提議攪個公投睇吓人民想唔想繼續獨立,佢預計大部份人都會投贊成票繼續獨立,但希特拉唔想比佢攪公投,所以先下手為強,喺公投都未開始時就命令納粹軍入侵奧地利,仲拉咗奧地利首相去坐牢,之後仲將佢放入集中營。
    希特拉奪權後進入奧地利時,又竟然有大批奧地利人熱烈歡迎佢喎,既然佢咁受歡迎,咁之前奧地利首相攪公投時希特拉又做乜咁驚青呢?呢點我唔明,我以為佢咁驚青證明奧地利人唔想合併。
    跟住希特拉又再攪個公投,之後宣佈話有99%奧地利人投票贊成德奧合併喎,唔知個投票結果係真定假
    如果你覺得奧地利人認為自己都係受害者,你可以問吓佢哋對嗰個公投結果點睇,又問吓佢哋當時點解做乜咁多人歡迎希特拉上場

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    1. 熱烈歡迎佢>> 唔知係咪好似e+ d極權國家o既領袖咁, 都好受國民歡迎.

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    2. 極權國家領袖受人民歡迎(例如北韓),係因為政府封鎖外界消息,又幫人民洗咗腦
      但希特拉侵奧之前,奧地利人應該仲未被洗腦,應該知道希特拉嘅惡行。有報導話當時奧地利因經濟大蕭條做成民不聊生,奧地利人想有好嘅改變所以對希特拉心存厚望,係唔係真,就靠你去訪問下啲奧地利人啦 :D

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    3. 有興趣就去睇吓奧地利人熱烈歡迎希特拉啲片啦,你應該會認得啲街道大廈石像:
      youtube.com/watch?v=v2iCc-Go9DY
      youtube.com/watch?v=hRSwWuVtHF4
      youtube.com/watch?v=9ZxjI3aFtsc

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    4. 唔知我啱唔啱呢. 可能猶太人太有米,令到嗰時啲人仇富。

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    5. 仇富當然會有,但只係其中一個原因。
      猶太人除咗有米,仲有招人妒忌嘅卓越成就,2戰時維也納嘅專業人士(醫生,律師,商人)有超過一半都係猶太人,睇右手邊個表:
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Vienna#Early_20th_century_.E2.80.93_the_end_of_the_Habsburg_Monarchy_and_the_First_Republic
      仲有就係佢哋從遠古嗰時已開始從事銀行生意,好聽嘅就話佢哋係bankers,唔好聽就話係大耳窿,咁可想而知點解啲人咁憎佢哋。
      英文有個反猶太人嘅字,叫做anti-semitism,係一個好鬼複雜又歷史悠久嘅問題。

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    6. 又被失蹤啦喂,今次都唔係好長啫

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    7. 社會經濟都好似卑佢哋壟斷晒。
      又被失蹤?!!!

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    8. 社會經濟都好似卑佢哋壟斷晒 <-- 無辦法,佢哋嘅DNA的確好優秀
      又被失蹤?!!! <-- 可能係因為wiki個link :(

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    9. 但係猶太人唔係一個種族,只係信呢個教就係猶太人,唔關DNA事囉.

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    10. 咁我講清楚啲: 猶太裔(猶太裔係 Jews by blood, 唔計信呢個教嘅人)嘅DNA的確好優秀
      社會經濟都好似卑佢哋壟斷晒 <-- 佢哋咪係猶太裔囉,的確係關DNA事

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  19. 今次無link但留言又被失蹤 :-w

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    1. gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

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    2. hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

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    3. 哈哈,個blog係你嘅,佢唔敢對你啲留言郁手腳 :))

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    4. 你又試吓好似我咁睇睇留言會唔會被失蹤

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    5. gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
      hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

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    6. 無被失蹤喎,唔通係要打中文先會被失蹤?上面有網友打大段英文都無事

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    7. 會唔會一個中文字其實背後係好長嘅code呢?

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    8. 應該唔會,長極都有限,九成九係你個blog唔妥我 :p

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  20. 我鍾意讀歷史架,但大多比返老師,不過最後果段我仲記得既

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    1. 仲記得d d都好過乜都卑返晒老師

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入咗嚟,不如寫幾隻字,留個言啦.